"Does He Like It, Baby, Does He Like It?" Is Porn Ever Bad For Men's Sex Lives?

Summary: Given the vast empty space between squeamish (or non-existent) sex education and industrial porn it’s not surprising that some people might get… funny ideas about how to be sexy in bed.

Via someone or other on Twitter, Ashley Lindstrom of Zelda Lily takes a tip from Mary Elizabeth Williams (at Salon.com) and the magic question: Is Porn Making Men Bad at Sex?

[Williams] suggests that “the goal-oriented, money-shot, male-centric perspective of most porn (hint: Women don’t need to see that much fellatio) have changed us.” The ubiquity of this porn has put new pressure on women (and men; we’ll get there): Shaved pussies are expected. Pole-dancing skills don’t hurt either.

Men have new standards for themselves, too, regarding size and performance time – things that they perceive women wanting. (Which is a little funny, given the first sentence of the last paragraph; these poor dudes are doing it to themselves.) That’s where Williams comes in: “...thinking you can learn to make love to a woman from watching porn is like thinking you can learn to drive from watching The Fast and the Furious.”

Read the quote in context here.

That sounds about right. There’s all this debate about whether porn is bad because it does, or doesn’t, hurt the women who perform it. There’s all this debate about whether porn is bad, or isn’t, because it sets up expectations that porn-consumers partners have to be even more Cosmo-style performers.

But there’s not a lot of talk about how porn might be bad for the men (and it’s still primarily men) who are consuming it.

And I don’t mean “bad for men” in the sense that it makes them complicit in the (much-debated) degradation of pornography’s subjects. Or in the secualr sense that it makes them immoral and/or unfaithful. Nor in the even more narrowly secular sense that it makes them masturbate. Nor in the sense that it makes them judgmental or insensitive to their partners. Those have been debated, and settled to everyone’s satisfaction (ok, different settlements but still satisfying to their diverse adherents.)

What’s not debated so much is how porn might be bad for men’s sex lives.

I’ve talked about it before but Salon’s Williams nails it with

He’d been jackhammering away for what felt like hours. “You like that, baby? You like that?” he asked, though he didn’t notice I wasn’t answering. And then, somewhere around the 18th time he said it, it hit me — I wasn’t just having bad sex. I was having bad porn sex.

She said it here.

Thing is, based on my own experience, jackhammering away hoping your partner “likes that, baby, likes that” isn’t as good as it gets for men either.

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Obligatory disclaimer: Obviously not all porn demonstrates bad sexual technique. Just the 90% of it that, according to Sturgeon’s Law, is crap.

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you know, i had this happen to me while making out with a younger man.

he started talking all funny and using dirty talk while we were still fully dressed and i was seriously looking around for the cameras. he was even making funny faces for no reason like he was trying to “act” horny…

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I dunno, I’ve frequently wished we had MORE porn sex. Considered showing the boy some of my favorite porn as inspiration :)

(ok, fine, so I’m a freak. But I shouldn’t be! More people should be like me! I’m awesome!)

[I’m not sure how that makes you a freak, Plymouth. If you’re looking for more variety with your partner then why ever not show him your favorites and say “let’s do it like this?” I’m more worried about when it goes in the other direction, as in “no, we’re supposed to do it like this.” —fl])

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Plymouth, I concur, and I’m in your camp too :) I also like porn (according to my own standards) and porn sex is a good (and expected) addition to the menu. And I think that’s the key….there should be a good lot of variety to keep everyone happy, and a one-trick pony of either gender is a colossal bore.

The false dichotomy of “romance is for women/porn is for men” bothers me…most PEOPLE (regardless of gender or orientation) want a blend of both…a little from column A, little from column B, depending on the time/place/mood/whim/individual tastes/etc/. It’s a lot like food/eating…basic drive, but how and when you satisfy it varies quite a bit. Sometimes you want to sit down for a long leisurely, multi-course gourmet dinner. Other times a bit of standard comfort food is appealing. Frequently, you might just want to quickly consume some junk food and fall asleep. There’s a bunch of standard menu items that you rotate through regularly, but sometimes you want to try something new and exotic that isn’t the routine dinner fare. A person’s tastes and repetoire tend to expand with time and experimentation. So the question of “what do want?” does not have one simple answer. Most intelligent people can solve the problem of “what’s for dinner? what do we want to eat tonight?” with a little conversation and communication. :)

And without some real and honest talk about sex from and among adults, how else are people going to learn about the nuances and complexities…not from porn or abstinence-only sex ed that just says “don’t”.

[First of all uggh! I agree that the romance/porn continuum argument is totally bogus. (Not that there aren’t similarities, they’re just not the same.) Second, I’m not saying porn’s bad, I’m saying that when people discuss problems (there are problems with everything) they rarely mention problems that might befall the actual end user. Another thing, speaking at least from the male perspective, a lot of the specific acts I see performed in porn that look interesting from a third-party perspective don’t feel very interesting to the man performing it. And, finally, based on conversations with perfectly porn-friendly partners of relatively-inexperienced men, people (I’m guessing not just men) who know about sex primarily from watching it have a very hard time reading their partner’s actual, as opposed to acted, cues. Including engorgement, lubrication, grunts vs. groans, etc. Point being I’m not knocking porn any more than the original poster knocked “The Fast and the Furious.” I am knocking, however, a culture where the primary input for the equivalent of driving lessons is often the equivalent of Fast and Furious. Thanks, Kaija. —fl]

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now I’m sad. you’ve robbed me of my freakiness :(

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I wrote about something tangentially related to this on my (very infrequently updated) blog:

http://blog.birthcycle.com/2009/07/14/utopian-promise-of-porn/

And then someone came along and suggested your blog in response. And now I follow you on my google blog reader. waves

I feel pretty certain that porn watching is likely problematic for most everyone, though for many people the problems may be quite subtle and impossible to tease out of the greater societal sex baggage we’re all carrying around.

I say that not because it’s depictions of sex and sex is bad – which is not what I believe – but because most porn is pretty awful, full of misogyny, bad bad sex, awkward “for the camera” positioning, and disaffected or uncomfortable and unnatural looking people.

Anywho, I probably said it better (though maybe not – I ramble too much) at the original post and at the second one rebutting a wacky defensive comment that came after:

http://blog.birthcycle.com/2009/11/18/in-which-i-avoid-my-nanowrimo-commitments-by-blogging/

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I counsel men on sexual issues and it is CRAZY how many have hangups about their penis size. Some of these guys are 7 inches! I blame mainstream porn and monster dicks for this.

[Yup. Meanwhile I know someone who thought she was a “size queen.” She’s involved with a guy who’s big as a soda can and… there’s like only one position she can handle intercourse in. So sometimes size isn’t everything even when it is! :-) Thanks, TBK. —fl]

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I’ve often wondered the same thing, Figleaf. Culturally, we seem to be a group of folks who are trying to imitate “entertainment” — which we either cannot or will not believe is a structured, surreal creation — and end up being dissappointed with real life. In regards to sex, in real life women AND men have a wide range of real experiences to explore, to seek out, to accept as “fucking great!” and to reject as “uhm, no, not for me.”

But porn producers, sit-com producers, action film makers, young adult novel writers, reality TV developers, televangalists, etc. all have a tried and true playbook that they kinda must pull out in order to meet their production nut and please their target audience as well as the paying distrubutors.

Whether it’s men (and women) short changing themselves and their partners in bed, or people who think you really CAN get dropped in the middle of a freakin’ island and have time to fashion yourself a swell, seashell necklace while you forage for food in a mysteriously bug-free environment, we could all benefit from a reguar dose of super-sexy, sweaty, REAL, turn-off-the-TV, fantastic, fun, funny, messy, hard, but oh so worth it reality.

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Is porn worse in this regard than it used to be? Or are men watching a lot more porn than they used to because of the Internet? Or are people more confused about the difference between TV (and related “moving picture” type media) and reality?

I remember the first boyfriend I had sex with saying that if it weren’t for porn, he wouldn’t have known there was any way to do it except for missionary position. And sure, it’s nice that I got that information from my mom’s copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves instead of from porn, but I’m still glad he picked up that information before we started having sex. And the ways in which he was a bit selfish (and he was), it wasn’t at all in the ways described in the Salon article or by the other commenters. Let’s just say, he was very attuned to what felt good for him and what didn’t, and he wasn’t about to do anything in the later category.

I realize I’m dealing with a sample size of one here, but is something different in the culture or the porn that’s producing this phenomenon? I mean, people – especially men – have been watching porn for a very long time.

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This all seems to boil down to the problems that result from inadequate sex education, as acknowledged in this remark: “I am knocking, however, a culture where the primary input for the equivalent of driving lessons is often the equivalent of Fast and Furious.”

Porn isn’t supposed to be real sex, and criticising it as if it is makes no sense to me. Its job is to enable a viewer to imagine a scenario and get off on it. That requires awkward positions etc because you have the awkward problem of letting the camera see what’s going on, and cameras of sufficient quality are still pretty bulky compared to the amount of space normally found between two bodies engaged in sexual acts!

If I were to design a sex education class, there would be a series of lessons about porn, that would involve looking at a few porn scenes and in each case explaining why it isn’t realistic – all the hours of preparation required, why the bodies are positioned that way, and so on. In short, I would use porn to teach how not to do sex. Doing so would also make talking about sex seem normal and okay.

This brings me to another point. The quoted anecdote about bad porn-style sex said:

“You like that, baby? You like that?” he asked, though he didn’t notice I wasn’t answering.

Maybe giving an answer would have been helpful – that answer being “no, not really, maybe you should try something else.” Part of the kkey to good sex, i always thought, was communication. Porn can cut both ways here: for some, it opens up the ability to communicate about sex; for others, it replaces communication because the porn viewer believes he (or she) knows how to do it without communicating. Again, good sex ed would help to deal with that!

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To run with the metaphor, I don’t want to get rid of The Fast and the Furious—it’s great entertainment. But I do wish that it was easier to teach driver’s ed, in and out of school, where students don’t just watch crash videos and recite traffic laws but really learn to drive.

[Very nicely put, Holly! Perfect actually! —fl]

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Just to be clear, here, I’m not saying consuming porn makes anybody bad at sex. In the presence of other inputs, as Chingona points out, it can be a source of inspiration. Nor am I saying that not consuming porn makes someone good at sex. (That would be heh.)

I have noticed, though, that an awful lot of people, previously mostly men but I’d guess increasingly women, do get their primary input form porn or porn-like sources. And those forms of input color our expressions of sexuality. And not always for the better.

(I know, by the way, that it’s a bit uncouth to bring up the influence of romance but I’ve had interesting conversations with several people who were just sure their first time was inauthentic because they hadn’t felt fulfilled, “a woman/man now,” or any of that stuff. Similarly I know a number of people (again not just men) who are freaked out by hair, breasts that don’t stand up when you lie down, and (this one’s weird to me) wet or engorged vulvas.

Anyway, without making too much of an issue out of it I’m still going to stick to my thesis.

—fl

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