MRAs, Self-Induced Misery, and Confirmation Bias

Wow. So I’ve been bumping into more and more MRA/Pickup-Artist/anti-feminist bloggers with sites named stuff like “Misandry Review” and “Rebuking Feminism.” All I can say is they see the world really, really differently from me.

What’s particularly funny, or would be if it wasn’t so breathtakingly tragic, is that for all their anger and, often, anguish they go to enormous lengths to uphold the paradigm that with their own words, over and over, is crushing them.

One guy, who seemed to think I had to be a woman because I was boosting feminism, was doing this weird self-defeating gloating at the fact that the more equality “us” women got the fewer partners we were going to get. Because, if I understood him correctly, a 2003 paper he cited on what I call the “Maureen Dowd effect” proves that well-educated, successful women can’t find partners “better” than them and so… they don’t find partners at all.

The paper, Education and Hypergamy, and the “Success Gap” (pdf) by University of Washington economics Prof. Elaina Rose, does mention the effect, and cites Maureen Dowd in particular…

But nowhere in the paper does Rose say women want it that way. One particularly chilling reference in her paper:

[A]nthropologist Barbara Miller [1981] studied areas of rural north India and found that strong pressures for hypergamy implied a lack of
suitable husbands for high caste girls. This created a disequilibrium that was resolved through female infanticide.

Which sort of leaves you wondering why these guys are angry at women and not, say, the parents who think so little of their own daughters they’ll murder them to boost the resale value of those who survive. Because wow, it ain’t feminism that supports that.

On a far cheerier note, Rose points out that the tendency for women to practice “hypergamy” (defined as “the tendency for women to marry up with respect to education or other characteristics associated with economic well-being”) isn’t as immutable as… MRAs, sociobiologists, pickup-artists, and other anti-feminists seem to think it is.

[E]conomic theory can explain hypergamy as the outcome of a model of specialization and exchange of the traditional form – i.e.,
one in which men specialize in the labor market and women specialize in home production. Gains from marriage will be greater for couples who are hypergamous with respect to labor market productivity, or characteristics associated with productivity.

...

[F]indings in a number of recent papers suggest that the role of specialization and exchange in marriage has declined. As the source of gains from marriage shifts from specialization and exchange to production and consumption of public goods, hypergamy, and the associated success gap, would be expected to decline. Moreover, transformation of social norms from those that encourage hypergamy towards those favoring more symmetric matchings will tend to reduce hypergamy, and the success gap, as well.5

5 Goldstein and Kenney report that women with college education are more relatively more likely to be married in 1980 than in 1960.

In other words what Rose is saying is that yeah, when the entire economic system is geared to keep women economically and socially dependent on men women tend to try and maximize economic well-being by the only mechanism available to them. But a page later she points out that that system appears that that kind of “marrying for money” diminishes as women become more economically and socially independent. (And, indeed, that marriage rates actually rose as more women completed college!)

And yet these MRA guys are so sure invested in the “marry for money” status quo that crushes them down to the dimensions of wallets that… they’re actively opposed to anything like feminism that might make life better for them, more fair for them, and make them more likely to experience loving relationships with their equals instead of resentment-based relationships with artificially-subordinated human property.

I don’t get it.

In fact, don’t get it? My life is almost the opposite of that whole “women only ‘buy’ up” meme!

For one thing the mythic male/money/seduction thing never really worked for me. I had more sex, more often back when I was an always-hungry, homeless, long-haired, unemployable, usually-needing-a-shower high-school dropout — with a Gomer Pyle hillbilly accent no less — that at any other time in my life. Back then every woman was “high-status” compared to me, but… none of them seemed to mind. Including a statewide “Junior Miss” pageant winner, a diplomat’s daughter, girls from lower, middle, and upper-class families, or girls who were as down and out as me.

You know what they almost all had in common though? (Besides bad taste in men I mean?) They all had the idea that they’d be able to live independently some day and so they generally weren’t as fretful about picking the “wrong” guy who might not turn out to be on the “right” track to support them.

Oh yeah, and since they had ambitions of independence and partnering with the men of their choice instead of driven to choose “walking wallets” out of necessity they weren’t worried so much about their “reputations” and so they tended to be a lot wilder in bed. More experiemental. More up for new stuff. More willing to say what they liked, and more willing to try it again if they did.

Sure, I occasionally was short-term partners with women who seriously joked with each other about marrying someone rich so they could “lie flat on my back drinking Cutty Sark and eating bon-bons for the rest of my life.” And they’re fun in bed too, don’t get me wrong. But they were way more likely to say “I’m not that kind of girl” than “nah, that doesn’t turn me on.”

In other words, while MRAs seem convinced that men are such disagreeable life-forms that women will only hang with them out of freaking, shrieking greed or desperation, but never love, friendship, or pure, unadulterated horniness.

Shrug. If I was a woman, which once again (feels in pants… nope) I’m not, I wouldn’t want to hook up with a guy who felt that way about himself either, and I sure wouldn’t want to hang out with a guy who felt that way about women.

So. What I keep asking myself about those guys is what’s your plan? You can sit there and stew over how you can’t buy your way into a woman’s bed anymore, can’t force your way into a woman’s bed anymore, and aren’t allowed to lie your way into a woman’s bed anymore either. And you can fume and call that femifacism or castrating communism or whatever. Or you can look around and take a look at who’s the bigger threat to your manhood — the women who just want to be treated like people, or whoever the sam hill it was filled your brain with “no sex for you unless you earn it?”

Thing is they could “reprogram” every feminist on the planet and it wouldn’t change their self-imposed misery a single iota. In fact they could moon-rocket every woman on earth and it wouldn’t change a thing. Because it ain’t women creating their misery. And it ain’t feminism that’s increasing it. More than women ever will it’s in their power to open their eyes to who’s really at the source of their (self) oppression.

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I think you benefited from the countercultural dynamics of a particular time and place, and you fail to see that (at least for me) my particular demographic has increased tendency to hypergamy with women’s success. One of the Jewish women I studied with in college clerked for a Supreme Court justice and is now with one of the better law firms in San Francisco, she wouldn’t date me then and she won’t date me now.

Maybe we just want to be angry, but I can tell you that my extraversion and, in my college days, a lot more friendliness — didn’t help much, doesn’t help much now.

[Well, if its any consolation she probably wouldn’t have gone out with me then, and wouldn’t go out with me now either. I think you’re really constrained by focusing exclusively on other women in your particular demographic. Which, I have to say, seems more narrow than simply “Jewish” as most of the Jewish women I used to hang out with (including in my wild days) aren’t particularly “hypergamous.” I can see you wanting to be angry — that gives a lot of men the best of both worlds (sort of like “angry” feminism does.) You get to blame someone else for why you can’t have something you’d… actually have to be at least a little crazy to want anyway. Problem is when you play that game, and say “oh no, that’s the way all women are” you’re screwing up the world not just for yourself but for everyone else. —fl]

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Actually, fl, I think you live on the sexual equivalent of Sugar Candy Mountain, to the extent that you don’t have a reply to the MRAs/PUAs (like Ferdinand Bardamu, Roissy, and Anti-Feminist Tech) who are out in the world being engaged with women, openly sexist, and either openly or clandestinely polyamorous, or the guys like me and Eivind Berge who are meeting hundreds of women a year on the street or in social situations and getting 2 or 3 dates, maybe one of which will result in a relationship. It may be that Los Angeles is particularly socially savage, but during a normal Friday night at a bar I’ll see one of the unattached-to-any-female-members-of-the-group men in a mixed group (who were perfectly pleased to meet me) start breaking eye contact with me and the women following that cue to back off, back turn, or walk away to refresh their drinks. (When it’s not an Alpha Male putdown on the order of “Let me freshen that up for you” from another guy.)

It’s a seamless, self-reinforcing system that has nothing to do with my beliefs, because I’ve radically changed my beliefs and personality to become less calculating, more open, and more trusting, and the MORE directly I treated women as unmarked humans, the more success I had, but only in limiting the hurt of rejection. Attraction is still in some other realm, which I can’t actually seem to detect or induce, except when I am deliberately offering unattached sex to a woman who (for whatever reason) has been passed over and involuntarily chaste for months at a time, as I usually am.

Different day. And yes, we can talk about the class demographics of the Jewish community, but then we get to discuss weight and epilation or lack thereof among pink-collar-lower-middle-class Jewish feminists. Suffice it to say that I’m generally not dating anyone very femininity-compliant at all. Holly Pervocracy is a shaved girly-girl, all ribbons, satin, and lace, compared to some of my usual suspects. I do genuinely like my partner(s), but that’s a function of personality intangibles and for some reason no one very stereotypically-attractive or feminine ever seems to like my personality. It seems my whiny softness tends to attract big, hard-nosed women.

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plz to not speculate creepily on my hair and fabrics situation kthx

Also, there’s a difference between hypergamy, which is the socially induced desire to marry guys who are well off, and the natural, in fact tautological, desire to associate with guys who are desirable. You can speculate on factors that would cause women to ignore money; you can’t find factors that would cause women to ignore everything and give every available male an exactly equal chance. Giving unattractive men a “chance” isn’t social justice, it’s asking women to act as public utilities.

Finally, and more cattily than FL likes, I know he tries to keep this blog a Nice Place and I have such difficulty with that, I have to point out that when I have a partner(s) I’m really genuinely happy with, I don’t spend all my free time approaching hundreds of people desperately trying to find something better, and I don’t go around telling everyone she’s fat and hairy and manly.

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Um, you display enough on your NSFW blog for me to make an educated guess, and you talk enough about lifting stuff as part of your job, but mainly you talk about how despite the lifting and the tough stuff for your job, you like getting dolled up and how you see yourself as a girly-girl, appropriately feminine despite everything associated with the job. Most of my previous girlfriends have equally been into stuff like shooting, skydiving, etc, but they hated getting dolled up and would never regard themselves as girly-girls.

I think Arpagus and I are most likely to be the most openly unhinged, and, well, women have a far easier time of it, period. I’m pretty much openly poly so your cattiness is utterly misplaced, my partners and I are sharing some pretty hellacious life challenges from our ability issues right now, with sex on the back burner. It’s more a combination of being a genuinely lonely person all the time everywhere, still trying to validate myself by dating someone pretty, able-bodied, etc, and having to pool resources when nobody can work a 40hr week without serious pain. So, no, I’m not giving up on my currently-sexless life-partnerships, and yes, I am a pig, sorry you caught me on a bad day.

[”...still trying to validate myself by dating someone pretty, able-bodied, etc.” Yeah, see there’s that “validating” thing again. Cart before horse. And also, talk about accusations of “hypergamy” in women! I’ll refrain from being harsh, Eurosabre, but I won’t stop Holly from jumping all over you. But did you read my following post? You’re totally responsible for your own misery. It has nothing to do with the “quality” of your partners at all. —fl]

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The fact of the matter is that males have been “marrying up” for centuries.

Ever heard phrases like “Married the boss’s daughter”?

Or about the fact that Medeival Knights used to marry primarily for political alliances.

[Yup. And just consider the male euphemism “getting lucky.” Thanks, Red. —fl]

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Excellent post, fl…and the comments are entertaining. Myself and most of my female friends and acquaintances (this is my frame of reference since I’m a nerd/jock and this whole subset of super-socially conscious adversarial daters is foreign to me) have dated “up” and “down” and really have very little interest in a guy’s income, socioeconomic status, “provider” ability since the things we find attractive are not money/status-oriented: wit/humor, intelligence (which is different than “education”), unique quirkiness, and independence/confidence (for the most part…we all have our bad days and periods of self-doubt). None of us have ever explicitly made an effort to “get out and meet people” but instead bumped into them through work/school/recreation/community/sports/gaming/volunteer connections. I either like someone, or I don’t, and it has nothing to do with whether they are “higher” or “lower” than me, since I am looking for equal partnership, natural chemistry, and mutual respect. I can support myself, so as fl alluded to, I can be completely free to do what I want with whom I want. But then I’m not part of the pickup scene or the gold digger scene. The whole meeting people/strangers in bars and pickup spaces scenario just leaves me cold. Not the best place to meet people, IMHO, and the PUA types seem to really advocate the “cold call” in a bar or cafe or bookstore instead of just getting to know people in your life.

Of course this does mean that a person has to actually put some effort into developing a life and interests and a group of friends and activities that fill your days and give you motivation and meaningful ways to amuse yourself. There are certain subsets of men and women who seem to be waiting for the right person to come along and give them everything that will make life worthwhile and in that frantic search for a fairy tale, are missing out on a full life and stalling their own personal development. A woman who is looking for a provider to fund a cushy life of shopping and bon-bons and a man who is looking for a subservient maid/sex partner/ornament are two of a kind…but I think that they ARE subsets and I really hate when they are extrapolated out to “all men” and “all women” and pitted against each other in some economic negotiation scenario. And many people’s stories show that this is only one variation, as fl illustrates with his own life experience.

And if the overwhelming majority of people you get to know have no interest in you or snub you, either you’re picking the wrong people to hang out with/approach or there is something about you that is not resonating with the people you meet…the common factor is usually the first place to look. All these angry entitled-to-a-babe MRAs and PUAs give off this vibe of pissiness and adversarial oiliness/cockiness covering fragile egos that is really just offputting. I agree with the theme of the original post—-they shouldn’t be angry at the women for not sleeping with them, they should be mad at whoever sold them this stupid scenario and at themselves for buying it. My own means of support + good self-esteem = not playing, thanks.

[Thanks, Kaija! As Holly said, it sounds like you’ve got a fabulous job so you can afford not to be picky! A catastrophe, perhaps, for those who insist on being anti-social and still get laid but not so big a problem for anyone else. Also “the PUA types seem to really advocate the “cold call” in a bar or cafe or bookstore instead of just getting to know people in your life. “ Yeah, that’s that “validation” thing all over again — it’s not a challenge to hookup with people you actually know and who might like you. Instead you have to go somewhere you don’t think you fit in, approach people you don’t think would be interested, and try and — literally, since they seem to keep track — hypergamously “score” on someone that you believe would have no interest in you at all if you weren’t working all your mad skilz. (I understand that for a lot of PUAs the real goal is to get their target’s phone number, not even actually to go out with, have a relationship with, or even have sex with.) Which makes it entirely about “validation” and not about horniness, loneliness, or other actual interpersonal desires. —fl]

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Well, my “fabulous job” IS fabulous because I really do like it (not that there aren’t moments that make me want to pull my hair out) and it lets me do work I am interested in/intrigued by and be around the kind of people I like to spend my time with. However, the pay is crap, on the grand scale of “status” and “socioeconomics” so I’m not “high status” when it comes to income. But luckily, due to a blend of my parents’ influence and my own experiences as a poor student/grad student, I have an appreciation for the simple life and much of what makes me happy has nothing to do with material things (though I have a weakness for fancy electronic devices, like laptops and smart phones and gadgets). I can easily take care of my needs and wants and I appreciate other people who can and do live within their means, whatever those may be. I find if you don’t need a lot, it really frees you up in so many different ways!

[That’s so cool, Kajia. “Independence” doesn’t have to mean “independently wealthy.” Which would be just another trap like the one I fell into. Independence means not being or feeling forced to attach yourself to someone else to get by. Nicely said. —fl]

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...Um, I actually am hypergamous, in the sense of wanting any sex partner of mine to be smarter than me. (Or a musician/artist/person with excellent fashion sense, none of which are talents I am blessed with.) I realize this limits my dating pool really significantly.

But on the other hand I couldn’t care less about his or her income, status or anything else I’m supposed to care about. A starving artist gets far more attraction from me than a lawyer, no matter how rich he is.

And I know that my priorities are hardly the priorities of most people, as I’ve had this discussion numerous times: “Why do you like him? He’s an idiot!” “But really good-looking.” “But an idiot.” “He has a 4.0 GPA.” “Yeah, weighted, like that’s hard. He doesn’t even know who Goethe is.” “Why is that relevant to my dating choices?”

[”... in the sense of wanting any sex partner of mine to be smarter than me.” Would it help increase your dating pool if I said “that’s a dumb criteria?” (I’m totally kidding. I don’t think you’re dumb.) I know people who, for instance, won’t date anyone shorter or, conversely, taller than them too. And it does limit their choices. I know a couple of people who only want to date people in committed relationships and boy does that limit them. The first question I’d ask, though, would be whether you could manage with someone who was just as smart as you. From there it would be to ask how about someone who wanted to talk about Goethe because there were parts of Faust he didn’t understand and he liked what you had to say about it. Point being that while everybody gets to be choosy about who they’re drawn to (or else, for instance, deep bisexuality would be a lot more common), a lot of the time they can discover more flexibility than they think they might. Thanks, O. —fl]

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The thing about intelligence that I’ve noticed is that it tends to be fairly specialized, so it’s not as bad as I made it sound— I mean, I might speak Latin while that guy doesn’t, but on the other hand he can do calculus, so he’s smarter than me.

And Goethe Dude has intellectual curiosity, which is totally awesome, especially if he’s able to explain Joyce to me. :)

...I can totally work up a really awesome evopsych justification for my fixation, though. I’m trying to maximize the chances of my children being able to both speak Latin and do calculus, and therefore be able to survive when tossed into the hostile wilds of both the classics and the math departments…

[Heh. I figured it was something more like that. It sounds like you want someone you can exchange with (Latin for calculus for instance) rather than someone who can best you at everything (Latin and calculus and multiscale geophysical modeling using the spectral element method and ev-psych “just so” stories. For instance.) —fl]

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This reminds me of an episode of Grey’s Anatomy where a guy’s legs get infected after he goes to another country to have a leg lengthening procedure. all he can talk about is how the reason he’s unlucky with women is his lack of height. and he makes all these bitter comments about his tall brother. finally the brother loses it and tells him that the problem isn’t how short he is – it’s how he never shuts up about it! forget about height, income, education – nobody likes a bitter whiner.

[Yup. It’s not that you don’t want to have sympathy for what people want. It’s that you want to be clear about the difference between what they want and what they need. As Holly says over at her blog, society doesn’t date us, nor do we date “standards.” We date individuals. Thanks, Monique. —fl]

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