Em & Lo, blogging at SUNFiltered say
Meryl Streep, our new hero, on sex scenes between older people: “The whole idea that you have to look a certain way and be a certain age to earn love is ridiculous. We love what we love. It doesn’t matter what shape it is. It’s thrilling to see real people on screen.”
I’m not going to just want to be having sex when I’m old, I want to be sexy too. Sexy being at least 50% a state of mind, a good way to make that possible is to acknowledge that sex doesn’t stop at age 25. Nor is sex with the lights on.
Streep, who (like many of us have and almost all of us will) tried 25 for a year but moved on, is a wonderful ambassador for that message.
Summary: Based on the disconnect between a woman’s response to men’s concern this is a meditation on how men use our own criteria for determining the significance of penis size to women.
In response to… quite a few other comments on an advice post at Em & Lo titled “My Boyfriend Has a Small Penis,” where the correspondent complained her new boyfriend’s penis was 5-6 inches long a commenter named SP said
Guys, really, 5″ isn’t a small penis! It’s average; no woman in her right mind would look at you and feel short changed. I can’t believe more than 1% of all women out there would think 5″ is too small. I had no idea so many of you [guys] feel this much pain about this issue. That was tough to read, especially since I know your dick size doesn’t matter! Don’t believe the hype!
No wonder Em & Lo made it that week’s Comment of the Week. I say good call.
As I read through the comments it’s actually clear that while penis size really does matters but it doesn’t matter much. To women.
It seems to matter quite a lot to men, who evidently can’t shake the notion that it matters, a lot, to women. Yes, it actually does matter to at least some women too — else the original correspondent wouldn’t have written her letter to Em & Lo in the first place. But that’s not the same as mattering to everybody. Or even mattering the same way to those for whom it does matter.
Honestly, though, it’s like men worrying about preferences for chin size, or hairline, or chest hair, or age, or smell. (Aside: No need to do the cliché opposite-sex comparisons, and just because they’re popular doesn’t breast-size/penis-size analogies are a good idea anyway.)
What’s funny, though, is that some women really do only want partners who are older than them. Or want men who smell better to them. Or men with certain accents, or faces, or hair. Or, oh, say, “men who are not muscle-bound; men with more feminine face shapes, men with attractive faces“
Yet men rarely take those “inadequacies” to heart. We rarely, say, compare our feet to other men’s in the locker room and worry that this one or that might be a better dancer.
Hearing that some women prefer bigger penises, though, puts an awful lot of men in a tizzy. Let one man’s penis be even a little bit bigger than another’s and reassurances notwithstanding there’s a good chance second one will decide the larger guy would be every potential partner’s first choice.
At any rate, I think the commenter’s bafflement nicely illustrates the difference in the way penis size matters to women vs. the way it matters to men.
Incidentally (and this relates to the comment thread in Melissa’s fascinating post about men and body image at Feministing Community) I think a lot of this derives from men’s self-indoctrination in Rule #2 of the bogus Two Rules of Desire: it is simultaneously inconceivable and intolerable for a man to be sexually desired. Lacking an understanding of men’s appeal to women in general we can’t locate penis-size preference as one among our partners’ many perfectly real but also perfectly flexible preferences.
Unrelated conversations overheard in a community-college cafe: at one nearby a young man telling someone he thought another lip ring would “help;” at another table an older woman telling a friend that getting breast implants made her feel like she “had herself back” after her children grew up.
Boy, it’s really up to each of us how we choose to modify our bodies. Tattoos, piercings, braces, haircuts and shaving, dieting, working out, tanning, hair plugs for men, and so on are all ok, I guess. And if we can stick things in our ears, noses, bellybuttons, scalps (hair plugs again) and lips then I guess you can stick things in your chest too.
Which is a long way of saying yeah, if you want to modify your body then go for it. Just don’t do it because you feel inadequate, or unattractive, or “if only I had…” because, you know, it doesn’t “improve” other people. So why should it “improve you?” On the other hand, just like a tattoo or a tan or all the other things we do to ourselves it will decorate you. And if you’re into self-decorating, and not “improving” then, again, that’s completely up to you.
Which gets to my main point: I don’t think you’d let someone browbeat you into getting a tattoo because they wanted you to have one. And I don’t think many people would buy someone else saying “if you’d just dye your hair blue could find a partner.” And so, thinking about implants as decoration you can sort of immunize yourself from what you think anyone else would like, in favor of what you’d actually like.
Anyway, keeping in mind that some things, like tans and haircuts can grow out while tattoos and implants… not so much, the real question being not just so much what you do as what’s the long-term impact on your health. A boob job is a much bigger risk than body piercing. (Take it from me: recovering from general anesthesia is not the same as the day after Quaaludes and tequila. And recovery from surgery hurts! Complications from surgery can hurt too.)
On the other hand in the long run it may have less health impact than, say, chronic tanning. Which we tend not to think of as “body modification” at all.
A post from last April about Unforseen Consequences of Men Believing Themselves Unseen has been picked up on by the social-referral site StumbleUpon.com. I’m glad it’s been picked up — I think it’s a good piece about an important topic. I have no idea, however, who originally, um, stumbled upon the post and linked it, nor how to find that original link so I could thank or otherwise credit them.
At any rate thanks. Welcome. While you’re hear you might also want to check out
Bridget Crawford of Feminist Law Professors has a thoughtful analysis of body-hair removal in the face of increasing marketing of shaving products and services to men. (She reports one Gillette tagline goes “you might say when there’s no underbrush, the tree looks taller.”)
While I strongly disagree that shaving one’s pubic hair makes one look prepubescent (when was the last time you heard that description of a man who shaves?) I agree with Crawford that body-hair removal for both women and men is closely associated with the culture of youth.
Example A? The “problem” of back hair. Back hair doesn’t really start to sprout in men till middle age. And so ads for back hair removal (either temporary or permanent) are a staple of aging-youth-oriented alt-weekly newspapers, where such ads are at least as common as ads for “bikini line” waxing.
Crawford says, sensibly,
[H]airlessness  obtained naturally or by grooming  is a sign of youth (the pre-pubescent look), body-consciousness (I can see those abs glisten!), self-care (when you trim your nails, trim your hairs) and other-regarding (how thoughtful of you to anticipate that I wouldn’t like hair up my nose  wait a sec, did you assume I’d be visiting this part of your anatomy on a first date?).
A marketing technique will be a sure winner if it appeals to men’s desire to feel, um, large. There’s a reason that Trojans don’t come in size “small.”
The hairless look? Shows off a guy’s “equipment,” in Gillette’s lexicon.
Anyone who’s eagerly looking forward to her or his partner sprouting those tufty little middle-age patches of hair on his back, shoulders, and the backs of his upper arms pipe up.
But if, as I suspect, anti-ancillary hair bias is as strong against men as it is against women, an even more effective marketing strategy would be to taunt men for looking like skeevy old men.
Also, her sentence “how thoughtful of you to anticipate that I wouldn’t like hair up my nose” can be read two ways for anyone over 40, for whom lushly abundant nose hair may be “perfectly natural” but is rarely greeted by partners with any hint of enthusiasm.
Via Maxwell Hammer of News for Perverts here’s a YouTube version of an ad that’s evidently not being shown in Australia.
Hammer’s take is that Australia is more prudish than America. My take is that prudish or not the male centrism is kind of out of control in the sense that people with really big boobs… even boobs they can’t see their shoes over… tend to have spacial awareness and kinesthetic agility such that they can see… pretty much everything. Especially given that to reach one’s mid-twenties implies that one was once in one’s two’s, three’s, five’s, eleven’s and consequently even if they’d been pubescently precocious they’d have long-since figured out how to see around and over them. Oh, and speaking of seeing, someone cognitively capable of addressing a service person would most likely have seen the platter as it was being set before her and so she would have registered that fries were present even if they were momentarily obscured.
Aww, that’s just me being no fun at all. I know, maybe she’s got short-term memory loss from, say, a stroke, medication, a blow to the head, or maybe a date rape drug like flunitrazepam. Ha ha, wouldn’t that be a riot!
Dang, I’m still not getting into it. I know, maybe she’s a 21st-Century version of Fred McMurray in the Absent-Minded Professor and she’s got her head so wrapped around a problem in the synthesis of amphiphilic block-copolymers it’s a marvel she remembered to order fries at all. Hey, now that would actually be pretty funny.
Another post I’ve been meaning to get to. Back in April Margaret Jezebel let us know about a new dating website.
Do you hate wasting your time dating guys and learning all about their thoughts and feelings only to find out later that they have an average-sized penis? Then 7orbetter.com is the dating site for you.
7orbetter.com is a new site for people interested in meeting men with penises that are seven inches or longer. According to the website, the mission of 7orbetter.com is to let women know “upfront if a man has what it takes to satisfy you sexually.”
Margaret quotes Washington City Paper writer Amanda Hess’s wry reaction
Isn’t society just terrible? A “properly behaved woman” who is only interested in men with huge penises may have to wait months-months!-before figuring out that the man that she has spent months falling in love with has been hiding a dick that’s slightly too small to deserve that love. Now, with Seven or Better, that woman can know from the first date the exact dimensions of that penis she doesn’t want to see yet.
Margaret adds that the site welcomes people of all persuasions including men seeking men and, perhaps less intuitively, women seeking women. She also says the editors want some sort of 3rd-party verification and they take a dim view of “any photograph [they deem] to be of such superior quality (i.e. modeling shots, magazine pages, etc,) that it raises the question of that photograph not being a reasonable representation of said member.” It’s not clear what exactly they mean by “said member.”
I know men are raised to believe that length of erection is better but, at least on the heterosexual side most people I know who’ve expressed a preference seem to prefer girth over length.
It’s all moot to me, of course. I may be tall, and I may have big hands, but I’m otherwise perfectly average.
Weekend editor Hortense of Jezebel says
Oh, internet. Without you, how would we ever learn about Boytaurs and those who love them? According to Urlesque, there’s an entire (NSFW) Boytaur site devoted to those who prefer “pony boys with octopus arms.”
Boytaurs fall into several categories, apparently: either half-man, half-horse, or just men with multiple arms and legs. “Of course, many boytaurs don’t stop with four legs,” notes the site, “Some add more legs, going six-legged or more. Some add extra arms. And many, enjoying all their boytaur feet, decide to go wristfooted as well.”
She found the link via URLesque.com
To be honest I’m not terribly impressed. I’m not sure the site’s intention is even erotic so much as more of the same old iconic/stereotypic/lookee-thar. And pretty much by definition photoshopping men’s torsos on to horse bodies (let alone photoshopping more muscles onto already musclebound men) doesn’t representing the erotic possibilities inherent in the figure of the ordinary heterosexual male. Still, if manamal mashups are your thing boytaur.com seems to be your go-to destination.
If you’re an adult you can click here to see a possibly not-work-safe image.
Even further follow-ups on Kink in Exile’s post about erotic appeal and men. Shulamith Firestone, one of the original 60’s-era radical feminist and author of Dialectics of Sex actually has some seriously cool stuff to say about beauty and eroticism. In a way that pushes forward her agenda, not at all backing it off. Check it out.
And eroticism becomes erotomania. ... From every magazine cover, film screen, TV Tube, subway sign, jump breasts, legs, shoulders, thighs. ... Even with the best of intentions, it is difficult to focus on anything else. ... But in all this barrage of erotic stimuli, men themselves are seldom portrayed as erotic objects. Women’s eroticism, as well as men’s, becomes increasingly directed towards women.
Hmm… no wonder critics accused Mathilde Madden and Kristina Lloyd of being “‘hard-headed feminists’ ‘do gooders’ and, um, ‘lesbians‘” for thinking erotic photos of men are hawt!
Firestone continues
I want to add a note about the special difficulties of attacking the sex class system [Note: seriously, “no-sex class system” would have been better nomenclature —fl] through its means of cultural indoctrination. Sex objects are beautiful. An attack on them can be confused with an attack on beauty itself. Feminists need not get so pious in their efforts taht they feel they must flatly deny the beauty of the face on the cover of Vogue. For this is not the point. The real question is: is the face beautiful in a human way – does it allow for growth and flux and decay, does it express negative as well as positive emotions, does it fall apart without artificial props – or does it falsely imitate the very different beauty of an inanimate object, like wood trying to be metal?
I say “no-sex class” is more appropriate than “sex class” precisely because women as ideal sex objects are projected as wood or stone — faces and forms frozen… literally “statuesque,” eyes on the horizon, jaws tilted and knees locked just so. (One wonders whether the seemingly enforced breakdowns of… almost exclusively… women at Kink.com is fired by desire not so much to see them break down as to see how much they can “take” before they do.)
It gets better though,
To attack eroticism creates similar problems. Eroticism is exciting. No one wants to get rid of it. Life would be a drab and routine affair without at least taht spark. That’s just the point. Why has all joy and excitement been concentrated, driven into one narrow, difficult-to-find alley of human experience, and all the rest laid waste? When we demand the elimination of eroticism, we mean not the elimination of sexual joy and excitement but its rediffusion over – there’s plenty to go around, it increases with use – the spectrum of our lives.
That’s so cool! Everybody thinks radical feminists are anti-sex, or, even better, “sex negative.” It’s more like… you know that old joke “I like both kinds of music, country and western?” Or “We have both kinds of wine, red and white.” Or, maybe more accurately, “We only serve the best beer — if it doesn’t come in a green bottle we won’t sell it.” It’s like they’re objecting to that kind of view of sex — not that there’s something wrong with country music, or beer in green bottles, or even no-strings simulated sex with submissive skinny supermodel sibling sluts from Sweden and Saskatchewan but that that’s the only valid kind, and only if you “pass the test” of either beauty for women or worthiness for men and if you don’t fit you don’t count.
Because great hand-blown hummingbird feeders that view of sex, relationships, and sexuality isn’t just “sexist” or bad for women (though obviously it is) it’s also a desperately, starvingly impoverished view for everybody.
What. Ever.
It’s funny but even though I don’t always feel comfortable or welcome claiming I’m a plain old feminist it’s stuff like this that makes me say, unhesitatingly, that I identify as a radical feminist.
Conveniently for a follow-up to yesterday’s post about the men’s insufficient vocabulary for our own appearances Scott Adams of Dilbert.com Blog says
Yesterday I spent several hours at a photo shoot. The photographer was an award-winning top-of-his-field professional with an almost supernatural sense of visual rightness. At one point he was taking some profile shots of me and I mentioned that I thought I had a “good side” but couldn’t remember which one it was. So he had me face left, then right. As soon as I turned right he said, “It’s that one.” No hesitation. No doubt about it.
I find this to be an inconvenient sort of knowledge. For the rest of my life, every time I talk to someone I will want to cheat my face toward the good side. I will never again make eye contact unless it by peripheral vision. In the interest of public safety I will only walk on the side of the street that puts my good side toward traffic.
...
Or was it my other side that the photographer said was my good one? Shit.
Again, it’s not that we can’t know who does or doesn’t looks good to us as far as men go, it’s that there’s so little context we can’t related it to anything.
—-
Follow-up to the follow-up: an important point I forgot to mention yesterday that I only glanced off off with the Dan Quayle discussion. It wouldn’t matter that men’s ideas of attractive men were the same as women’s. It’s that very often when we say “don’t you think so-and-so is attractive” we’re often asked if we’re serious. Which sounds like another way of saying “not so much.”
And yes, in a way it shouldn’t matter. And yes, it’s grievously unfair… and dumb… that straight women and gay men, who may be no more attracted to attracted to other women than straight men are to other men, nevertheless are saturated to the scuppers with messages about exactly what is or isn’t desirable about women’s appearance. And oh yes, it would be a serious problem if men were evaluated only by their ability to reflect photons in an appealing way. But the preferred alternative to TMI isn’t sphinx-like silence, it’s something closer to a happy medium.